scouts-l Mail Archive for March of 2000: Re: Drunk Dad
MAJ) Mike Walton (settummanque, the blackeagle (blkeagle@USSCOUTS.ORG
Sun Mar 21 1993 - 20:28:06 CST
James DeGhelder wrote:
>But the problem is that I can no longer participate.
Says who? The BSA says that you *cannot serve as a registered Scouter*, James.
Two different items.
As I wrote earlier, registration entitles you to wear the uniform, to earn
and receive training and service recognitions, and to participate in
national and international activities *as a participant*. No organization
can bar you from providing volunteer services...that's a right of
association guaranteed all of us as American citizens. The BSA can bar you
from a Council summer camp. The BSA can bar you from the Council office.
That's THEIR property, and they have a perfect right to do such things. But
they cannot bar you from a meeting location which belongs to a chartered
organization, nor can they bar you from an activity with a unit belonging to
a chartered organization.
The lack of registration, still entitles you to assist a unit, still
entitles you to accompany that unit during camping and other outdoor
activities (subject to the approval of the
Cubmaster/Scoutmaster/Coach/Advisor/Skipper and the chartering
organization), and it still enables you to give to Scouting and to make your
opinions known to the local District and Council.
So "participation" is up to the interpretation of the person looking at it.
>So I must assist the youth that will be the leaders and policy makers of the
>future in other avenues. Through programs that believe that standing up for
>what is right, and good. Through programs that believe that every
>individual should be treated with respect, dignity, and just plain good
>manners. And if the Scouts Oath, Law, and Motto don't reflect this then I
>have misunderstood the entire program completely, my apologies.
There are many former Scouters whom have been denied registration that are
still "hanging in there", providing advice, assistance and that second or
fourth pair of hands. They do so in clear approval of the chartering
organization, not behind anyone's backs. If a chartered organization says
"Sorry, if the BSA says no, then we'll have to say no also," then there's
other ways you can be of use. If a chartered organization says "yeah, but
with restrictions," that's what you live with.
Lookit...that's the way the BSA ALWAYS has been, James!! Units made the
final say no matter what the Council says...and of course, they take the
heat if unfortunately they make a wrong decision (and I don't think they
would in your case!) But no, you cannot be a *registered Scouter*. The BSA
One of the first folks that I talked with online about their removal said
"I'm still doing everything that I used to do with two big exceptions: I
don't get to wear my uniform any more, which bothers and some days hurt me
to my heart; and I don't get to go to the Council's summer camp any more,
which was my life (he had previously been on summer camp staff at this camp
every year since he was 14).
But I still follow the Scout Oath. I still follow the Scout Law. I still
"help other people at all times" and I still contribute to my Council's SME
So I'm still a Scouter. I'm just not counted as one to the BSA or my Council."
If you choose to assist other organizations, that's fine too....there's a
place for Scouters in the TRUEST sense of the word Scouter, in just about
every youth organization (and lots of adult organizations too). Those same
standards -- the Scout Oath and Law -- can be your personal guidance in
anything you set out to do.
Whether it has a "uniform" with it or not doesn't matter.
>My response to the post was just to state that sometimes we need to
>investigate what is happening. Don't succumb to the "zero-tolerance"
>mentality sweeping our current policy makers. (BTW the reason for the
>zero-tolerance policies is to cover their behinds, They feel if there is a
>policy in place they can't be sued, Thank you lawyers).
*moving head back and forth* Okay...I can live with that. I'm not sure
that I agree with this, but okay...
>It seems that most of the postings in the group accept smoking as long as
>the kids don't see you. If that is the case don't be hypocritical and say
>it's not ok to drink if the kids don't see you.
It's *not* the same, James. The BSA has DIFFERENT policies dealing with
drinking on BSA properties or while participating in BSA activities than
they do with regard to cigarette smoking. A *small* reason is because one
of the BSA's National partners over the years has been Kraft Foods, whose's
parent is Phillip Morris USA (one of the "big five" national cigarette
companies and who is currently spending multiple millions of dollars
reminding us all that they are more than the makers of Pall Mall...).
The BSA PROHIBITS consumption of any form of alcohol by youth or adult
members PERIOD. Seen or not, on the property or off the property...if it's
in connection with a Scouting program or activity, it's illegal.
(and yeah, we've talked earlier about the Council Annual Dinners and other
events in which liquor is sold or available...)
The BSA STRONGLY DISCOURAGES smoking at Council-owned or operated property
by youth and adults. That's a WHOLE DIFFERENT LINE than "PROHIBITS". The
BSA has asked local Councils to develop their own policies on cigarette
smoking, and some Councils have went the extra mile by out and out
prohibiting cigarette smoking during any Scouting activity or event. (Check
*your Council* for the exact verbage dealing with this...it *does vary* from
Council to Council as it *should*.)
>Maybe we should ask to help him, not just outright ban him is all I'm
asking. If it >is deemed by everyone that this individual should be banned
then no whining later >when you find out you made a mistake and that the
person is diabetic and those
>insulin reactions were mistaken for drunken stupors. Remember those actions
>are final no recourse.
That's true, and that's why UNITS should not make those kinds of decisions
but rather leave those decisions to the local Council or perhaps the
chartered organization for final resolution. If a unit makes a decision, it
can affect all of the current and future members of that unit. If the
chartered organization or the Council makes that decision, it only affects
the person involved and perhaps his or her family...and it can be appealed
But you're correct, James...better to side on caution than to out and out
>You also stated --
>Under the "Maintaining Standards of Membership" policies, a local Council
>Scout Executive (and ONLY that person...not the District Executive nor a
>Field Director/District Director) can remove a person from BSA membership
>for whatever justification he or she sees fit. ---
>How can a Scout Executive make the decision without the encouragement and
>endorsement of the District executive or a Field Executive/District
>Director, or even the local leaders?
He has to. He can take recommendations from other Scouters, from other
professionals, but when the FINAL decision comes down, it is HIS OR HER
signature affixed to the "Ineligble Volunter Determination" form which is
faxed to the BSA's Registration Service. It is HIS or HER decision that a
volunteer should have to forfeit their registration; and under appeal, it is
HIS OR HER decision and the reasoning thereof which will be called into
judgement by the volunteers serving on the Regional appeals committee.
Scout Executives can make decisions rashly without consulting
anyone....they've heard a name, for instance, and immediately associates
that name with anything negative. But PROOF....there is none, which
overturns the removal. This is why the BSA's "Maintaining Standards of
Membership" booklet (a restrictive publication to senior-level professionals
at the Council and Regional levels) clearly states that the Scout Executive
must exhaust all resources before making that decision to remove a
volunteer. Do Scout Executives follow the publication?? No, many do not.
That's why upon appeal, volunteers get reinstated and are allowed to
continue their Scouting service.
(MAJ) Mike L. Walton (settummanque, the blackeagle)
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