Re: Philmont concerns
settummanque, or blackeagle (blkeagle@DYNASTY.NET)
Mon, 8 Sep 1997 18:11:29 -0500
Keith Hooks wrote:
>> 2. We saw three crews of 4-H kids go on the trail the same day we did.
>>If Philmont can't accommodate all the Scouts that want to go, then why
>>are we opening up the Ranch to outside groups? (That question comes
>>verbatim from one of our Scouts.)
For the same reasoning that your Council's camps are open to church groups,
4H, school groups and to organzations and businesses looking for a different
place to conduct "group" or "team training" courses.
They pay for that right, and your local Council and the BSA gets the
exposure to yet another group of *hopeful contributors and members*.
And Stan Rudnick added:
>I agree with your Scout.. being that Philmont is a BSA reservation...
>and being that I assume that the requirement for being 1st class assumes
>that the Scout has learned various skills necessary for a safe trek....
>why is Philmont allowing others in before Scouts....
During the camping season, Philmont "shares" camping resources with the Girl
Scouts of the USA, 4H, and several other national organizations. In
return, BSA youth leaders (mainly Explorers, but some senior Scouts like the
National OA Chief and his Vice Chief) are asked (but few take it up!)
to attend and participate in other national youth programs.
For instance, I attended the 1979 Future Farmers of America (FFA) Conference
as a BSA National youth officer (at that time, I was the national speciality
association chair of Communicative Arts Exploring).
I even got a FFA jacket (which I sold later but I'm going to get another one
because I liked the feel of the jacket) as part of the visit.
The FFA, like lots of other national organizations, look to the BSA to share
leadership development tools, techniques and processes with them. In
return, the BSA shares with them what's going on within the BSA and even
asks them to evaluate badges (like several BSA merit badges) and to see if
the badge work is "suitable for youth members at that particular age level".
The BSA, as a member of the World Association of Scouting Movements
(WOSM) also sends their national and regional youth and adult leaders to
other countries' Scouting programs and allows special contingents of other
nations' youth and adult leadership to attend conferences and programs like
that at Philmont. For instance, every two or three years, national BSA
youth officers from Exploring and OA are offered the chance to take part in
a Kenyan African safari and tour of a national park in that country. Again,
because of the personal costs, very few do take the BSA up on the special
event, but enough do to make the trips worthwhile and to offer those kinds
of special events to *qualified youth* from other programs and other WOSM
>is possibly unsafe and possibly a miss-appropration of any funds that
>they receive from National.....
*possibly unsafe*. I say this only because I'm aware that *our standards*
for training, coaching, leadership and responsibility are *vastly different*
from those of other Scouting associations. Many of us will say "lax" but
in reality, many of them view the BSA (and personally rightfully so) as "too
tight" (that "retentive" word comes to mind here in many regards).
I am sure that the BSA does take much care to protect themselves legally and
to protect the youth and adults physically, but I don't think they do take
care of the training and background experiences neccessary for a trek to
As far as "mis-appropriation" of funds, I disagree. Part of the BSA
registration fee includes an "agreed-upon donation to the World Friendship
Fund, which provides materials, training and program support to member
nations around the world". Look at this -- I do -- as "program support" for
those other member nations.
Besides, if they *pay for the experience*, why not?? That money goes back to
support units going to Philmont and other bases!
>I know I talked to Scouts who were at Philmont this past summer and the
>period they were there they said the places was "overrun" with Foreign
>Scouts... Non-BSA-dues paying Scouts is bad enough.. but 4H?
>well maybe they thought that they would find a cow in the road and >could
enter it in a contest...
As a person *very exposed* to the programs of 4H, I take exception to your
comment.....Four-H'ers are also very much involved in *leadership and
personal development* and experiences for their national youth leadership
(and those from regional and state programs) assist those youth in
discovering that life is not just "on the farm or ranch" but also "in the
city", "the 'burbs" and even "in the urban 'hood".
Four-H is coordinated in many states through the state's leading public
university, with programs in each county as part of their Cooperative
Extension programs. It's not just "cattle rearing" and "farm management"
that 4H is concerned about today...a lot of the same concerns with regards
to foresty management, conservation and environment, and with community
growth and planning are also those same topics found in many of the BSA's
Boy Scout, Cub Scout and Exploring awards and badge work.
I wish that many of 4-H members get to see what the BSA and other national
youth programs are doing...it's a good cross-fertization for all of those
programs just like this forum provides that cross-fertization for 4H leaders
and others from programs OUTSIDE of the BSA.
Remember this THIS mailing list is a YOUTH PROGRAMS discussion list.
There's others from groups OUTSIDE the BSA that contribute here just like
there's other groups from outside the BSA that do pay their fees, make the
arrangements, and attend summer camps owned by the BSA, as well as our
national outdoor ("high") adventure bases and facilities.
I do agree with both of you....that Philmont needs a MUCH BETTER and BY FAR
FAIRER way of getting units and Council contingents to Philmont; but they've
been trying various ways, and no matter what they choose to "solve it",
there's *always* going to be someone disappointed because they were excluded
for that year.
(c) 1997 Mike Walton ("no such thing as strong coffee,...") (502) 827-9201
(settummanque, the blackeagle) http://dynasty.net/users/blkeagle
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