Re: youth protection
Bruce E. Cobern (bec@NYC.PIPELINE.COM)
Thu, 12 Sep 1996 23:24:56 GMT
On Sep 12, 1996 08:17:50, 'Fred Weber <troop4@MIDWEST.NET>' wrote:
>I Disagree with your interpetation of the rule.. Our Council, the Greater
>St. Louis Area Council, INSISTs on the "rule of four". Very plainly this
>means that there has to be at least two adults and two scouts at EVERY
>scouting activity. This protects both the Scouts and the adults. This
>includes merit badge counselors..etc... It is not a difficult rule to
>follow...often the second adult is a spouse..
Well, GSAC is certainly free to define a leadership policy which is more
restrictive than the one national puts forth, but I still maintain that all
too often the YP policy is confused with the two-deep leadership policy.
They are not the same.
By the way, the "rule of four" specifically only appears in the Guide to
Safe Scouting as it pertains to "any backcountry expedition or campout" and
this specifically details the reason being that ONE person stay with the
injured person and the other two would go for assistance. Now unless this
envisions the two youth either staying behind together because one is
injured OR going for help together because it is an adult is injured (in
either case without any adult supervision), then this is a situation where
the G2SS SPECIFICALLY is authorizing a violation of the one on one rule
because it would be one adult and one youth going for help and one and one
staying behind. You see, even RULES have situations where expediency and
common sense dictate that they do not apply. (See page 4 of the Guide to
>>The TWO ADULT rule you are talking about refers to the leadership
>>on an activity. This requires two adults FOR THE ACTIVITY, one of whom is
>>over 21, etc.
Let me state here that my statement above was written without the G2SS in
front of me. The actual policy of two deep leadership, as stated in bold on
page 4, ONLY applies to TRIPS OR OUTINGS, NOT to ALL activities. Thus, it
would appear that two leaders are NOT necessary for meetings. In fact,
certain patrol activities are indicated as requiring NO adult leadership.
Sorry for the misstatement above.
>Define a scouting activity... driving a car full of scouts is an scout
>activity..as is merit badge couseling, etc...etc...
The fact is that I don't have to define an activity, only a trip or outing.
Clearly, it is the camping trip which is the trip or outing, not each
vehicle getting there. This is also specifically covered on page 4 of the
>This is NOT the only reason for the rule...better review the youth
That is probably not the only reason for the rule, but it most likely the
primary reason for the rule. The other primary reason for the rule would
probably be that it is felt that when a group is doing something other than
having a meeting, prudence would dictate that the level of supervision
increases. True, this two-deep rule is mentioned in the YP training as one
of the ways to create barriers, but there are other ways to create those
>When we car pool on activites we are in a caravan and no one stops on
>own, we often drive one adult to a car but no car goes off by itself..this
>way no adult is never alone with the scouts out of site of others...
>Maybe this will help.
Well, travelling in convoy or caravan is an activity that is expressly
prohibited by BSA rules. (See page 32 of the G2SS which prohibits this in
bold as policy.) If the trip is long enough to require stops en route you
are supposed to designate those stopping points in advance and each vehicle
is supposed to get there on their own.
>>I hope this helps clear up any confusion.
Bruce E. Cobern
Terry Howerton Sakima Group, Inc. SCOUTER Magazine Kansas City