Re: Council List (secrecy)
Settummanque, the blackeagle (waltoml@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU)
Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:49:17 CDT
John Waidner <JTWaidner@AOL.COM> writes:
>In reply to Jesse Cross and others,
>I'll say it again: Scouting is the youth membership, adult volunteers and
>the professionals who help glue it all together. The order of that list is
>not accidental. There is no (as in ABSOLUTELY NO) reason to keep a list of
>councils AND their locations secret. There is every reason, mostly having to
>do with personal privacy, to keep confidential the names and phone numbers of
>professional scouters. I make that point since some people seem to assume
>that revealing one somehow reveals the other.
I feel, John, that you and some others here are confused between the
_Scouting_program_ as opposed to the _Boy_Scouts_of_America_.
The _Scouting_program_, and its premise, the way it should work, and
the people involved are EXACTLY as you described it....youth,
supported by volunteers supported by a SMALL NUMBER of professionals.
I have NO PROBLEM with that.
The _Boy_Scouts_of_America_ is a CORPORATE body, responsible to a
large number of "shareholders" (the National Council), with lots to
lose for failure to treat itself AS A CORPORATE BODY. Again, I ask
what national or local corporation lists a PUBLIC DIRECTORY of all of
its production facilities, distribution centers, supply depots and the
names and phone numbers of each of their local and national offices
and those that work there?
Such directories exists for the PRIVATE information-collection and
sharing between "divisions" and "local offices" to talk with the
national staff and offices. In ANY business.
Also, as I've stated before, there's NOTHING that keeps me or anyone
else here with access to such as listing from providing you with the
name and mailing address of a SINGLE or perhaps a COUPLE of local
Council offices. Nor is there ANYTHING that keeps me from providing
the Council number (which reminds me of a set of questions that
someone else had about that number...thanks) or Region location to you
or others here.
And, as someone else has reported here earlier, there ARE lists out
there of ALL of the current BSA Councils and Lodges, which change
frequently and somehow they keep up with all of it. There is also a
WWW site (wasn't it? or a FTP site) where you can get that same
I am a FIRM believer in sharing as much information between the
volunteers and the professionals. That is what brought me here to
Scouts-l. At the same time, I have to respect the BSA's desire to
keep SOME information OUT of the hands of those that could share that
information with one or several of the BSA's "rivals", or worse, cause
the BSA more trouble in the longrun.
John, the information is out there for you to get and use with your
Den. However, it is NOT "a right for you" as a volunteer to have
universal access to the complete list. It is not a right for me as a
former professional to have the list. It is not a right for those
that have the listings to sell them to patch collection publishers for
whatever reason. But I *do* have a copy of the old directory, which
I do share with volunteers that need the address or phone number or
Council number for a particular Council. I did share an extract of
that listing for two Council Jamboree contingents to use in preparing
a "friendship exchange booklet" for the last Jamboree. There *are*
people out there, both former pros and present volunteers, that have
sold or given directories to private companies to publish or use.
And the listing is out there, electronically, for your usage as well.
I just wanted to express that although there are several here that
have access to the list, the DIRECTORY BELONGS TO THE BSA
AS A CORPORATE BODY, which is the ONLY reason why I haven't uploaded
it or the maps to our archives. Posting it to the archives, where
anyone can get it, is about the same as sending it to every person's
>I asked the orignial question about a list of councils in response to a
>question from a Cub. I posted the question to this list since I don't have
>regular day to day contact with either volunteers or professionals. Yes, I
>could have picked up the phone and called our excellent DR, but I didn't.
She would have went to her boss, and (in real terms, not in terms that
Mike Walton would have done), come back to you and told you the same
things that I posted in my original response to your question.
> She's a busy person and by sending it to the list I knew that only those
>interested would respond (!). Its clear from the response that this is a
>topic of some importance to the list members and by extension to scouters at
It is, because of the larger implications of the release of this
information would cause. What if, for instance, John, someone here
had a listing of those individuals identified as "undesirables" by the
BSA and therefore not entitled to membership? Do we post that
listing here, since "nothing should be kept secret from us volunteers
in the movement?" And what keeps us from "keeping what we see or hear
secret?" Professionals have the Scout Executive Code and the
possibility of being either sued or removed from the movement
alltogther or both. Do we all sign "clearance documents" now, similar
to how military personnel sign documents upon leaving active duty or
a "secure site"?
It is NOT the "Johns" nor "Mikes" of this country that causes trouble
for the BSA...it IS the folks that attempt to capitolize off of the
BSA's distribution and local operations that caused the BSA problems
in the past. They don't want to relive history twice, that's all.
> I hope that National is monitoring this list, and this dialog in
>particular, and realize that scouting is more than hiding in a hole worrying
>about liability. So there was one bad experience (the TOM-? enterprise
>fiasco), but wasn't that 20+ years ago? Its nigh on time for a change
I think, John, that with technology going forward the way it is, that
there will be a time soon where that listing will be published in
BSA publications which can be bought or obtained by all of us. The
Regional maps are already in the OA handbook and in several
Commissioner publications. I just don't feel that this would be of
benefit to the VAST MAJORITY of Scouts and Scouters.
They don't really care how large the BSA is...they do care about how
large their Council is or how large their District is.
Settummanque, the blackeagle... (MAJ) Mike L. Walton (
co-Owner, Blackeagle Services ___)_
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