Re: Incorrect Uniforms
Settummanque, the blackeagle (waltoml@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU)
Thu, 21 Jul 1994 16:34:25 CST
Scott Begin <0005555440@MCIMAIL.COM> writes:
>Last week, Mike Walton, toward the end of one of his posts, mentioned
>that he follows BSA Uniforming specs with two exceptions: the OA lodge
>flap and the number Knots above the left pocket.
>From what I've heard, either from this list or other official sounding
>sources (meaning I haven't looked it up:), that you are only supposed to
>wear 2 rows (6 knots) on your uniform. I believe Mike was referring to
>the fact that he wears 4 rows (12 knots) on his shirt.
Nope...I actually wear 5.2 rows (that is, 5 complete rows and two on
top, for a total of 17 square knots. I am "entitled" to wear 20 of
them, and *choose* not to wear three on my "dressy" uniform shirt. On
other shirts, I have eight or nine of the "generic" ones (I'll explain
that later) and two or three of the "specific" ones on the shirt.
Those are my "work shirts".
Five rows on a large shirt gets you dangerously close to the top of
the shirt, anyways *grinning*.
The BSA's Uniform and Insignia Committee, through personal
conversation which I've shared here on Scouts-L over the years; and
more importantly, through the Uniform Guide (a BSA publication which
they are responsible for writing and editing along with the BSA's
Editoral Service) has stated that "a Scouter may choose to wear as
MANY or as FEW of the square knot emblems as he or she is entitled to
wear". There USED to be a limit, but that was removed in 1975 when
the BSA added six more square knots to the "inventory".
There are now 38 square knot emblems, the latest being the West
Fellowship Award (the "money knot"), which Scouts and Scouter may
wear if earned or received. Additionally, three local Councils
recieved permission to create special "overhand knots" in conjunction
with Council-level programs in their local Councils.
The local Council where I serve has a "informal limit" -- that is,
there is NOTHING WRITTEN which substanates their "inference" that only
nine or less knots are to be worn on the uniform. As Kathie wrote
today, the problem stems from people NOT being aware of the CURRENT
policy and being aware that the "average Scouter" will earn EIGHT or
more square knots during a 20 year tenure as a member of the BSA.
I've been a Scouter for 17 years and have 25 years tenure as a BSA
That's why when *some of them* come slinking around when I'm wearing
my "best shirt" and tell me that "I need to shave some of those knots
off", I can tell them politely where they can stick their knives.
>Mike, I would like to know what the problem with your OA flap is that it
>isn't to spec.
It isn't the OA Flap of the Lodge I currently belong to, Scott. I
wear my Brotherhood Zit-Kala-Sha flap (without the hidden
fleur-de-lis, so you KNOW how old *it* is) or I'll wear my Black Eagle
Lodge flap. There's personal symbolism in both flaps, and it's been
hard for me to take them off after having them on my shirts for years
It IS NOT correct uniforming, and I am the FIRST one to admit it. Not
a great example of being a "good Commissioner", I agree; however, it
is a personal thing with me and I don't really owe any "allegience" to
the Wapiti Lodge (point of contention here; when I was at EKU, I *did*
proudly wear one of two Kawida Lodge flaps, because I was a Council
officer for one and because I was active with that Lodge on a ongoing
basis...and when I worked in Pikeville many moons back, I wore and
still have a Tomahawken Lodge flap. So, it's *not* that I'm stubborn
(Jess will say "yes it is", but it's not really).
>Now before we get on Mike for incorrect uniforming too much, I would
>like to say that occasionally, I have unofficial additions or incorrect
>display of my insignia. Everything sewed on is correctly placed. One
>"no-no" is that I have a temporary patch sewed on the pockets and that I
>will wear my Philmont Staff patch from the button. I haven't seen the
>reference, but I'm told that you can only wear one temporary insignia at
>a time, wether it is sewed or hanging. I usually only wear the staff
>patch for special occasions (due to how valuable it is, most often I
>wear the gold border one from the 50th anniversary).
Same here. I will wear a Crest of Leadership on top of a temporary
patch sewn on the pocket, but only during TLT or other training
events. I also explain the significance of the Crest as well to
Scouters during training courses.
>For those interested, one uniform has a Philmont Staff Association Patch
>on it (FDL on it, so it's official). The other uniform has an Alpha Phi
>Omega patch displaying the fraternity badge. There is no BSA copyright
>on it, but it is OK as a temp insignia.
That's true, however, Scott, the BSA *has* approved the APO pocket
patch to be worn as a temporary patch back in 1971.
>My second sin is the shoulder loops. Most of the time I wear Red (as I
>pay my money to register as an ASM). However, I have 3 sets of leather
>loops that have a design stamped on them. One set is a Philmont Bull,
>the second set is a Scout Sign, and the third is an OA Indian Head (red
>& white). I wear them on special occasions only, and always along side
>of the red BSA ones. In realistic terms, there is no proper way to wear
>the things. All three sets were a gift from the HandiCraft director at
>Camp Rota-Kiwan, Dick Paxson, who I worked with for 2 years.
>For those who haven't seen the loops, they were created several years
>ago after Bill Breyfogle, the nature director from Rota talked about
>someone at camp school who wore different unofficial loops on his
>uniform each day. It was determined that leather ones could be made
>easily, and it wasn't long before stamps were being placed on them.
>When I went to Rota in 1991, they were all the rage, with most staff
>having a set, and all the kids wanting to make them. The ones I have
>have the design painted, with a brown dyed 1/4" strip on the edge. The
>rest of the loop is natural leather (mine have been out so seldom, that
>the color is still pink, as opposed to the tan color leather turns from
>exposure). The underside has the year and Dick's monogram stamped into
Those are DEFINIATE collector's items and should be worn at SPECIAL
events where folks will really appreciate them. Again, I have to fall
back on Kathie's statement that whatever we do as Scouters, so will
our Scouts. I've seen and witnessed this to be so true as time
passed and I *know* that by your wearing them at *special events* will
lend more creditibility to the occasion...but wearing them *all of the
time* won't and will signal to kids that "hey! That's normal! We
should do that" as you stated.
>The only other potential complaint about insignia someone could make is
>the name tag I have on my Jac-shirt. It is leather and hangs from the
>right pocket (I don't know if there is a proper place for a name tag on
>a jacket). I have a Scout tenderfoot badge stamp, a diamond jubilee
>stamp, and a leatherwork tools stamp on the front (in addition to my
>name), and a bar P crazy S (Philmont Cattle Brand) branded into the
There isn't. The Jac-shirt was originally supposed to be the
"Scouting overcoat" and the limited insignia was designed to support
that. However, nowadays, the jacshirt is just another optional
>Now before someone razzes me about being too perfect, I have very little
>on my uniform compared to others with 17 years in the program (stating a
>fact, not complaining), and I am wearing everything I am entitled to.
Don't feel bad, Scott...I've got pictures where I don't have barely
ANYTHING on my shirt...I was a lot younger, then..... *smiling*
You described what you are wearing...what about the Eagle and Arrow of
Light square knots?
Settummanque, the blackeagle... (MAJ) Mike L. Walton (
(h) 502-782-7992 (f) 502-781-7279 (w) 502-782-7467 |-=-|]
3201-D Cave Springs Avenue -- Greenwood, KY 42104-4439 -=====-
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