Patch Trading Summary (LONG POSTING)
Settummanque, the blackeagle (WALTOML@WKUVX1.BITNET)
Sun, 3 Oct 1993 03:34:55 CDT
( As usual, I attempted to find out as much information as I could from
various sources and tried to answer related postings on the subject.
So here are the posting made on the Patch-trading subject, and what I've
found out about them. At the end, are *my feelings* on the subject. )
Subj: Patch trading ethics and proposal ?
From: Don Izard <IZARD@UBVM.BITNET>
Subject: Patch trading ethics and proposal ?
Recently on rec.scouting, some comments have been cirulating
about the ethics of patch traders/collectors/dealers etc.
One comment I posted is that as with any "collectibles"
such as sports cards or coins or stamps, there will be
"abitrary" values and also "dealers". As it is in BSA
and the Jamboree this year, there is NO official group
in BSA or recognised by BSA to provide any information
to scouts or adults interested in collecting or trading patches.
In fact for the past few Jamborees, the major DEALER type
patch traders have been BARRED from the jambo, which MAY
have some merit. But we have banned both the good and
the bad. BSA is about the only major scouting organization
not to recognize the INTERNATIONAL Badgers! WHY?
Interantional Badgers have displays at the last three
WORLD jamborees at least! They provide information and
"Education" to new collectors to get them started and to
avoid RIP OFFS. There is also a CODE of ethics!
I have writen to BSA asking about why BSA will not permit
the Badgers or any US based scouting collectables or
traders groups to have a display/informatin area at any
scout funtions! I have NEVER recieved a reply!!!!
Any thoughts from this forum? Why does BSA want to
try to ignore that MANY patch traders are scouters and that
patch trading WILL be a part of any large gathering of
scouts? I would not cost BSA anything!
[ Don, I'll answer this one in a couple of screens. ]
From: "Brian L. Davis" <brian@COR.GOV>
I can't answer the question you posed about patch traders, but I can
shed some light on the National office's inability to answer mail. The office
here in Irving receives 3-5000 pieces of mail per day from persons asking
questions, seeking endorsements, lodging complaints, etc. and National doesn't
have the manpower to answer them all.
[ Let me add to Brian's note here about the mailroom. When our last CSE
(Chief Scout Executive Ben Love) was "hired", we had 27 people in the
mailroom answering and filing mail for the entire professional staff of the
BSA. Many of them took time to address and forward letters which could be
better answered by local Councils (for example, letters asking "how can I
be a Scout" and "what can I do to get my Troop to do more??", the two most
frequently asked questions from Scouts). Under Chief Love, the number of
mailroom personnel were cut twice...from 27 to 18 and then to 10. The
present seven employees (no professionals work in the mailroom, all of them
are employees) read and sort a average (1992 figure, 1993's figure may be
larger or smaller) of 5200 pieces of mail A DAY from Scouts, Scouters, and
the general public. The turnaround time which the BSA used to be proud of
("we get a answer out to our members and the public in a week or less
unless one of the days is a holiday...in which time adds two days" -- BSA
ad from Boys_Life_ in the 60s) has eroded to two weeks to a month for most
answers. 5200 divided by seven is about 743 pieces of mail a day a person.
That's a LOT OF MAIL. ]
Someone there told me that they make an effort to handle letters from the boys
first, answer "how-to" questions from Scouters as they have time, and basically
don't waste time on polictical silly stuff. I'm not sure how accurate that
response was, but it does make sense to me.
[ That's about right...except if the answer can be better answered at the
local level, they will place it in a bin which later gets sorted by Council
number, and the letter is sent in the next "pouch" to the Council Scout
Executive to answer locally. That explains part of the delay. They answer
"how-to" letters from Scouters basically if it pertains to something that
is not explained in Scouting literature, explained at Scouting training
courses, or not explained fully from the field. Two people field
telephonic questions from professional Scouters in the field and follow
them up with typed replies quoting Scouting references and cc's the
Council Scout Executive. You get too many of those and the SE asks you to
stop calling National and you don't call. They refer all "sensitive issues
questions" to the PR agency or to External Communications, depending on the
severity of the letter. ]
From: Don Izard <IZARD@UBVM.BITNET>
On Wed, 22 Sep 1993 13:04:36 +22320726 Brian L. Davis said:
> * * * stuff deleted * * *
>as they have time, and basically don't waste time on polictical silly stuff.
>I'm not sure how accurate that response was, but it does make sense to me.
I do not think the eithical issued that are constantly raised by
scouts and scouters concerning PATCH trading SHOULD fall into the
the politically SILLY stuff. BSA itself makes a MAJOR issue out
of the issue! BSA invoked the RULE that YOUTH can not trade with
adults look like total ripoff people who can not be trusted to
trade with scouts! It put all adult patch collectors into
CAN'T be trusted situation!
And the test the theory of the proposistion that SCOUTS answers
get first priority, my son at age 14 wrote a letter to ASK
WHY scouts can not trade patches with adults! Heck, when I
was standing next to my son at the JAMBO, wathcing a trade,
I was told to MOVE away, beacuse I was INFLUENCING the trade!!!!
Darn right! I was making sure my son did not get ripped off
by a 16 year old RIP OFF KING!!! I becomes ridiculaous to
the extreme when I can not offer advice to my OWN SON at the
It is rediculous that the patch traders organization with
rules for eithical patch trading are BANNED from BSA events,
but welcomed as PART OF THE PROGRAM AREAS at the last three
WORLD Jamboress, plus at least the last 2 Canadian Jambos.
My son asked BSA why they have created such a paranoid
policy on patch trading. He never got an answer!
I would like to know if anyone has ever recieved any
explanation, LOGICAL or NOT!!! 1) What is the basis
for the national policy that adults may not trade
with youth scouts at BSA national events. and 2)
Why does BSA continue to refuse any representation
at the jamborees of the SCOUT collecting associations
except SCOUTS on STAMPS. What makes them special?
After all there is NOW a Collecting merit badge!
Who would be better to run the BOTH at MB midway????
[Don: Here's your answers to your and your son's questions. I asked of the
National Director of the Boy Scout Program Division and the National
Insignia and Uniform Committee advisor. Here are the answers:
One, the basis for the "national policy" is the Insignia Guide
of the BSA. As early as 1989, the BSA has been on record that "Scouts trade
with Scouts and Scouters with Scouters". However, the BSA did NOT enforce
the policy, which was sent to each local Council and implemented for the
first time during the NOAC in 1990, until the 1993 Jamboree. The rationale
was that youth members should be exchanging items with other youth members
as a sign of Scouting friendship and that adult should be exchanging items
with other adults for the same reason. When a youth member exchanges items
with an adult, in most cases, it sets up a situation whereby the adult
in the exchange gets the subliminable "advantage" in the exchange.
Two, there's not a SINGLE Scouting organization dedicated to
Scouting memorbilia trading and exchanging, like Scouts on Stamps are.
There are thirteen Scouting trading/selling/exchanging organizations and
if the BSA allows one to attend a Jamboree or other event to set up shop,
it has to allow the others as well (or extend the invite). The OA
Council of Chiefs allows two Scout memorbilia associations to come and
"supervise" the trading areas more out of advertisment rather than
endorsment of the groups (many Arrowmen are members of one of the two
Three, Collections was NOT designed to serve as a Merit Badge for
collecting Scouting items, even though now National is admitting that
Scout patches and pins and other items *can* be used to meet the Merit
Badge requirements. The original intent was that of card and pin
I would be interrested to KNOW if any youth or adult
could get a written reply to either of the above!
[ The National Office is still investigating how to fully implement the
policy at the same time honor the wishes of the local Councils. In the
meantime, the ONLY official word is found on page 2 of the Uniform Guide
where it states that badges and insignia are the property of the BSA and
that it may be only used in the ways that they choose it to be; and on the
next page, it explains that the BSA only allows youth members to trade
"patches of a regional or local basis" with other Scouts or Explorers.
There's more..... ]
From: Pab Benford <BENFORD@MUVMS6.BITNET>
Im not sure about your age anyway !!!!!! its questionable !!!!
The Jambo was a good example of boys that were ripping off anyone......
If people would trade 1 for 1 we wouldnt have these problems, I know
some patches are worth more than others but how many boys and some
adults are willing to trade 10 for 1. I tell my boys to trade one
for one and if they wont do it walk away........
The cost of patches is getting outrageous also.........
[ Yes, the cost of patches is getting outrageous, but it's not because of
anything other than good old inflation. Patch manufacturers still sell
patches at the cheapest rates they can, however, once you start getting
levels and layers of "middlemen", of course, you're going to see the price
get higher and higher. ]
I do agree that there should be some kind of ethics and code that adults
and boys could use.......
Patch trading is a lot of fun and a good way to meet new people
I must have been nuts to pre-order stuff for someone I hardly know
From: Don Izard <IZARD@UBVM.BITNET>
On Wed, 22 Sep 1993 15:34:34 -0400 Pab Benford said:
> Im not sure about your age anyway !!!!!! its questionable !!!!
WHAT you mean you are finnally back at work?
My wife says I act like a child anyway!
BUT, since scouting is required to have at least
two deep adult supervision, at least they is
some one else with me to get into trouble!
I totaly agree that the best way to trade for NEW scouts is
one of mine for one of yours.
The majority of the problem seems to be agreed that when a
scout winds up with his grandfather 1937 FELT jambo patch
or maybe a old faded canvas 1950 jambo patch, or a 2 color
NICK Stoner OA patch. The look like junk to the average scout!
Any NEW scout trader at the jambo would probably been happy to
trade a two color OA patch from 1950 for the DR Seuss CSP or
even the Utah parks! That is what the patch was WORTH to him!
Is it OK if a scout trades the Nick Stoner to another NEW scout
for a CAMP PATCH worth maybe $1? If niether KNOW the value?
For those of you NOT familiar with NICK Stoner potches, It could
be worth $100 to $1,000 to an OA collector. So what is gained
by prohibiting ADULTS from trading with a scout? The scout
get ripped OFF and dosn't know it? Is that OK???
[ Don, no it's not okay. But how do you police something like that? Do
you have a registered Scouter stand at every exchange between Scouts??
I'll explain the thing about the tenting and staffing later on... ]
If BSA would recognise the members of the SEMI official Badgers
of the National Scout Traders or even alow then to have a INFO
both, scouts would be able to at least find out the value of
old felt, or canvass or two color twill patches!
[ If the National Scouter Trader's Association was allowed a booth, there
would have to be a tent with the twelve other "National trading"
organizations out there. The probelm is that National couldn't find a
single organization which would be fair and objective and at the same time,
be available to Scouts and Scouters throughout the entire length of the
There's also a side issue to this: in 1977, the BSA as you and I
know, set up tents all through the Jamboree site for the purpose of patch
trading. Scouts did not go to the program areas, they didn't even eat
lunch! They stayed at that tent from 8 in the morning until 5 in the
evening trading patches. While that's a great activity and the Scouts
surely got to meet Scouts from all over the nation, the BSA lost out on
some big bucks because of the low attendance at all of the other events.
So in 1981, they decided to come out with the "patch police" to walk around
those tents and other areas and basically to remind Scouts that there are
other things going on other than patch trading. That didn't work. In
1985, they did away with the patch police, but they still had the tents,
thinking that Scouts would get the message and go to the events...no dice!
So now, you're telling me that if I have a tent with members of the
National Scout Traders Association or some other group, that Scouts would
continue to go to all the activities and events and only come to that
particular place or places when they have a question about a particular
patch?? Come on!!! They'd spend all of their time over there...if not
asking stupid questions, which I guess are legal, but they'd be trading all
day and night long...that would become the center of the Jamboree! ]
I still can not see how a scout is "ripped off" if he trades
a patch when he dosn't know the value? How can it be OK as
long as niether scout knows the value? BSA is just saying
that as long as we are all ignorant about the VALUEs of pathces
then its OK. That don't make much sense to me.
I used to allways attach a mailing label to the back of pathces
I took to the jambo, in case someone wanted to conatact me after
the jambo. Maybe that is something that could be considered.
All I know is that the present polciy does NOT work, and
makes scouts or scouters that enjoy swaping patches and stories
look like some kind of sinister vilians.
Some one once told me the best trade is when you BOTH think you
got the better deal. Patch trading is NOT going to go away!
BSA should deal with it with intelligence and education, LIKE
many other scouting nations! Collections merit badge was a
small step forward! Lets see if we can keep the forward progress
and not the backwards concepts of prohibition and banishment!
From: Pab Benford <BENFORD@MUVMS6.BITNET>
What I do for the boys in my council that are going to something like
a Jamboree or NOAC is to have them bring their patches in and a few of
us collectors will go through their stuff and tell them what its worth
and whether or not we would trade it. I know its hard to judge some of
the stuff and no one wants ripped off, but if the boys have "modern"
csp's and flaps they shouldnt have to worry on a 1 for 1 trade.
[ Pab, the only problem with that is that it is subjective. What may be
good for you, may not be good for me. For example, if he's going to NOAC
with a brand new Lodge flap that has never been seen before, is not in any
of the books, it is something brand new...Me, being a patch trader who
doesn't deal in OA stuff, would simply advise the kid, "it's an OA flap,
trade one of your flaps for one of his". However, to you, and possibly to
Don and Don Newcomb, and some others who know their flaps, you may advise
that same Scout to hold out on a 1 for 1 and trade 3 for 1 or 6 for 1 or
even 10 for 1 depending on the value that you give the patch. And again,
this is an adult giving a relative value of the patch to a boy.
It would be really nice if the BSA, along with ASTA, would publish a book
or books listing the relative value of patches...not monetary value, but 1
for 1 or 2 for 5, or whatever, because as we all know, Scout patches are
just like anything else, the value goes up one day down the next. There
are several nice books out there with lots of nice prices attached to some
of the patches, but none that explain the relative value of ALL Scout
patches and you probably won't get one...it's just too hard to do. ]
If most councils,Sm, patch collectors would take the time to do this
it would eliminate a lot of heartaches......I think we should
develop a code of ethics in our own councils and troops !
Could you imagine "Honest Trading" at the Jambo ????
From: Gino Lucrezi <lucrezi@DSIAQ1.ING.UNIVAQ.IT>
I started collecting patches just some months ago, when I brought my
boys at the Kandersteg International Scout Centre. They did some
trading, and I did some too (well, they said I was the only one acting
like a pro, since I had bought lots of spares..).
Anyway, I would like to make some comments.
- AGESCI doesn't produce many fancy badges, and you have few on your
uniform. Basically, all you can wear is promise/group/region, plus
some section specific things (ranks and sixie's colour for Cubs, "tapp
", MBs, patrols colour and patrol leader/ass.leader bars for scouts,
nothing else for Rovers, a small coloured bar for leaders to identify
your section). Other than this, you wear the Italy badge when abroad,
and at most one commemorative badge (of some event you've been too).
Anything else is frowned upon as unnecessary.
So, we didn't have as many things to trade, but I think anything we
had was probably much more significant.
- I never traded something cut from my uniform, neither did my boys.
However, I met german scouts doing this, and was upset by this...
- I almost always traded to get something to remember about someone
else, even thoug I am sure I was almost ripped off in the process many
- I also traded to *leave* something to be remembered about me; I once
did this to get a patch I could have bought in my shop, but I left a
big smile on another scout's face, and that was rewarding enough.
- A badge is meant first to be informative: e.g. I belong to this group,
I am a Rover Leader, I took part in "Alisei" (a sort of national Camp
around more than 100 campsites). Anything else is secondary.
[ Gino, all of our badges in the BSA are informative. I can't think of
anything that isn't informative. Given your explanation on your country's
uniform, I can honestly say that the patches and insignia that BSA Scouts
and Scouters wear have a purpose. I think that the BSA in recent years,
has kinda went overboard a little bit, okay a bit, by labeling every patch
as to what it is...follow with me for a minute here...
In the earliest days of the BSA, you really needed a Boy Scout Handbook to
distinguish the various badges and insignia from each other. For example,
Commissioners wore patches with wreaths on red backgrounds and
Professionals wore pathes with blue backgrounds. The patches were
identical except for that one color. Later on, the BSA tried to make
things a little bit clearer by lettering some of their patches, which
helped, but you still needed a rule book.
In 1973, the BSA started labeling all of their officer patches and color
coded them...that was the best thing the BSA ever did...so that from a
distance you could recognize, just from looking at a patch on a person's
left sleeve, what kind of job they had, whether or not the job was a primary
or secondary role, what the name of the job this person has was, and whether
or not the person was trained. All from looking at one patch--I thought
that was awesome!! And so did a lot of Scouters. That went on for about
five years and then some knucklehead at National got some bright idea to
make all the patches blend in like they used to and we lost all of that.
Now everything that the BSA has, has an explanation to it: from the wolf
badge to the quality unit patches and everything, not matter what it is,
has a BSA fleur-de-lis on it. That one little thing detracts so much from
an otherwise beautiful patch, all in the interest of "assuring that the
patches are not copied". ]
A good secondary purpose is for knowing scouting abroad; so I can show
"there are scouts in all these countries!". Or for remembering people
I met (what's the purpose of having the "1st Kleineburg" patch if I
know noone there?). If it gets out of hand, something wrong is going on.
- Usually, only scouts are intrested in trading scout badges; but
Scouts should follow the Scout Law, so why do we have to talk about
From: Jim Sleezer <JHS8@OSUVM1.BITNET>
On Wed, 22 Sep 1993 15:34:34 -0400 Pab Benford said:
>I do agree that there should be some kind of ethics and code that adults
>and boys could use....... (for patch trading)
It is called the Scout Law!
[ Unfortunately, Jim, there are many patch traders out there and I can give
you one GREAT example of a guy across the state here, who are Scouts or
Scouters only on paper and have no connection with Boy Scouting except that
he or she give sums of money to local Councils and trades their patches and
other memoribilia. They really don't have to follow the Scout Oath and
Scout Law, because Jim, they're not Scouts nor Scouters, really! So how do
you hold a person who gives $20,000 or $30,000 to a local Council per year,
to the Scout Oath and Law? Would you want to hold that person to the Scout
Oath and Law if you know the only reason why he's hanging around is to
collect and trade Scouting memorabilia? And he's really not interested and
don't care about the Scout Troop down the road or the Scouts in that Scout
Troop down the road?? ]
From: Don Izard <IZARD@UBVM.BITNET>
Unfortnantly, everyone envoled in the PATCH collecting adventure
IS NOT a member of BSA or of any scout organization!
THE Scout OATH and LAW don't really cover everything in all cases,
otherwise there would not be a seperate OUTDOOR CODE for example!
And where in the scout oath or law, does it say ADULTs can not
be TRUSTED to trade with scouts?
From: Don Izard <IZARD@UBVM.BITNET>
For those of YOU not familiar with any of the national patch traders
organizations: From the American Scouting Traders Association (ASTA)
As a member of the American Scouting Traders Association, I WILL :
A - apply the Scout Oath and LAW to all trades
S - strive for FAIRNESS in all my trades
T - truly represent all items of scouting memorabilia
A - always follow the rules of the event that apply to trading
E - extend a hand of friendship to ALL traders
T - trade no patch known to be a FAKE or reproduction without disclosure
H - help new traders getting started
I - impress on the NEW traders the importance of ETHICS in trading
C - currently be registered and ACTIVE as posible in scouting
S - set the example in which all members can take pride
Note: that spell ASTA ETHICS :) CUTE or what? This is only one
example of what the various organizations have to offer!
From: "Ernest R. Spradling, P.E." <freemason@AOL.COM>
Brian's remarks and Don I's response were quite interesting, in light of
something I heard recently regarding the next Jambo: they will NOT be
allowing ANY trading of ANY kind, neither will they be allowing ANY visitors
within the gates during the week. A final blow will be the prohibition of
the Jambo attendees leaving the site to go to any TOR set outside the gate.
((and later Ernest said...))
I heard that National is planning to prohibit visitors to the next Jambo.
Further, no trading will be allowed, by ANYONE, within the Jambo site.
Neither will they allow a TOR outside the gate, because travel outside during
the Jambo will be prevented.
[ Okay, I've been waiting to answer this specific one. In talking with
four people, at the National office and finally getting ahold of a friend
of mine who sat in on the after-action-review of the 1993 Jamboree, I can
assure you that the Jamboree in 1997 WILL BE OPEN to the public, WILL BE
AVAILABLE to anyone who wants to come to the jamboree, and that patch
trading WILL NOT BE prohibited. There WILL BE some restrictions on patch
trading however, and I'll explain that in a minute. Just for the record,
close to $4 million was generated during the 16 days of the Jamboree's
operation from sales or Jamboree memorabilia, patches, uniforms and other
items excluding food, which of course, went in the hands of Scouts and
Scouters from around the nations of the world. The BSA, twice, ran out of
t-shirts, patches, and Jamboree coins during the Jamboree.
Now, let's talk about this trade-o-ree business. The BSA admitted during
the after-action-review that they made a SERIOUS mistake in allowing Scouts
and Scouters to leave the Jamboree site to go to one of the TOR sites.
Expect with the 1997 Jamboree, that Scouts and Scouters will be allowed to
leave the Jamboree site only for "true" emergencies. Now will this stop
the TOR from happening outside the gates of the jamboree?? *laugh* No
way!!! People will still be going to both of the TOR and any other TOR
that may occur. There is no way the BSA can stop this, since the TOR is a
private, organized event and is really technically, not connected to the
Jamboree...it just happened to fall on the same time slot as the Jamboree.
(*laughter* Jessiann says, "yeah right...") The BSA lost a little
business, admittedly, because of the business to allow the TOR. ]
I also heard that National is getting ready to move into the patch regulation
business on a full-time basis by requiring all OA lodge, Council and Camporee
patches come through Irving TX. I guess they want to make sure they make
their nut (i have seen some of the patches that National pushed on us in the
70's, and they were terrible).
[ No, National is NOT getting into the patch trading business. What
they're going to do is to enforce the policy that's already out there. And
they're going to enforce it very stringently. Let me turn back the clock
and remind everyone what it is I'm talking about.
During the 1977 Jamboree, there were several "counterfit" CSPs that made
there way, for the first time, to a National event. There were also
several "legitimate" patches designed specifically for that jamboree...for
example, staff sections had official patches, the OA Service Corp had
official patches and on and on and on. The BSA wanting to capitalize on
the creativity of Scouts and Scouters, decided that following year, that
ALL patches designed by the BSA or by local Councils, MUST contain either a
full-color or a one-color fleur-de-lis, the words "Boy Scouts of America",
or letters "BSA" or the words "Scouting/USA" (we were going thru a name
crisis at that time, we couldn't decide if we were Scouts or Boy Scouts,
therefore, both names were used).
Lots of Councils didn't follow National's edict and as a result, in 1981,
during that jamboree, those patches along with lots of other bogus patches,
were distributed out as well during the jamboree. National clearly had
a problem. So what they decided to do was to throw their hands up in the
air and say, "ok Councils you win...as long as your patches have one of the
BSA logos on it, we don't care what it says...". So they left it up to
each Council to basically police themselves.
Beginning in 1994, ALL Council shoulder patches will be designed and
produced through the National office and in 1995, all OA patches will be
approved through the National OA office...approved is NOT the same thing as
designed...local lodges will still have the option of designing as many
patches that they want as long as all of them are approved by the National
office. However, all CSPs will be designed by the National office...no
exceptions. As far as all the other patches and insignia, that will still
remain a Council item and local Councils can design patches in harmony with
National programs. ]
I do not necessarily agree with adults trading with youth... there are some
youth out there who are as unscrupulous as some of the adult traders (There
is one kid in my lodge here with whom I refuse to trade). Neither would I
want to take advantage of someone, whether they be adult OR kid.
Mind, I am not a member of ASTA (American Scout Traders Association), nor
NSCS (National Scouting Collectors Society), nor am I lobbying for them. I
believe that Don I was right in staying near his son - his son should have
said either Dad stays or the trading is over with that individual. If the
trader, or the "patch police", had a problem with that, maybe a friendly chat
with the Jambo Commissioner and/or Professional staff would have been the
If National wants to play "patch police," then they had better be prepared to
answer queries such as Don I's son's, and pronto. IMHO, ignoring honest
queries is unconscionable, and they should get off their duffs to get an
I agree that either, or both, of those groups are better equipped to police
the traders, and they should. National should let them have a shot at it,
rather than just prohibiting it. In addition, members of those groups should
be prepared to giving colletor's clinics within their own Councils and OA
Lodges, so that kids, and adults, will be able to get into the hobby better
equipped against getting burned by dishonest people.
From: Ben Parker <bparker@HOME.INTERACCESS.COM>
On Thu, 23 Sep 1993, Ernest R. Spradling, P.E. wrote:
> something I heard recently regarding the next Jambo: they will NOT be
> allowing ANY trading of ANY kind, neither will they be allowing ANY visitors
This must just be an ugly rumor. There is NO WAY to prevent trading at
the Jamboree, except not to have a Jamboree. Oh, there may be a rule
against it, but it will happen, rule or not.
As to the idea of no visitors, BSA simply can't afford to alienate so many
people. Over the course of the week, Jambo has more visitors than
participants. Besides, why would the BSA want to hide?
[ Besides, Ben, the BSA would lose a significant amount of money if no
visitors would be allowed at the jamboree. Think of this, on the first day
of the Jamboree, there were more visitors that came than there were
attendees; on the third and sixth days of the jamboree, there were three
times more visitors than participants. And on the day of the closing show,
there were four and a half times more visitors than participants. Does the
BSA want to lose out on all of that?? NOT! ]
There may be some feelings about trading, but if we have to cancel the
Jambo just to bring trading under control, then something is very rotten
I think this is simply a misunderstood rumor. The dust hasn't settled on
the '93 Jambo yet, it is too soon to say what will or will not happen in
From: Don Izard <IZARD@UBVM.BITNET>
The following policies will work as well as the NO VEHICLES on Thomas
road policy, and the official ruling that IT WILL NOT RAIN at the Jambo!
It has been proven that NO ONE is going to follow STUPID and UN-enforced
rules! Such policies only makes BSA look more foolish.
From: Michael Rogero Brown <michaelb@SUNRISE.CSE.FAU.EDU>
Why can't National do at the Jamboree what was done at NOAC? Have one (or
more) of the national patch trading societies run (police/manage) approved
trading areas? Its not impossible and would solve many problems. They
did at the last NOAC and it seemed to work well.
[ I already answered that, Mike...it's just that with 13 major groups out
there, which groups do you get and how do you keep from POing everyone else
who don't get selected? ]
I`ve never understood the attitude of National to patch trading. At the
many OA Section events (OA members are some of the biggest traders) and Lodge
events, we have times (& places) when trading is ok and everyone follows it.
Thus patch trading doesn`t intefer with the regular events and there are usually
knowledgable traders who can help the newbies out.
Have a big tent set up near the Trading Posts for patch trading and ask that
patch trading be done at certain times. That would alleviate many of the
problems, I think.
[ I explained that also...while it's a good idea, in principle, and
Jessiann would probably agree with you, that it would be a nice place for
folks to sit down and eat on nice hot days, in practice, with or without
"patch police" present, it doesn't work... ]
From: "Ernest R. Spradling, P.E." <freemason@AOL.COM>
On Fri, 24 Sep 1993, Ben Parker wrote:
>On Thu, 23 Sep 1993, Ernest R. Spradling, P.E. wrote:
>> something I heard recently regarding the next Jambo: they will
>>NOT be allowing ANY trading of ANY kind, neither will they be
>>allowing ANY visitors
>This must just be an ugly rumor. There is NO WAY to prevent
>trading at the Jamboree, except not to have a Jamboree. Oh, there
>may be a rule against it, but it will happen, rule or not.
>As to the idea of no visitors, BSA simply can't afford to alienate so
>many people. Over the course of the week, Jambo has more
>visitors than participants. Besides, why would the BSA want to
>There may be some feelings about trading, but if we have to cancel
>the Jambo just to bring trading under control, then something is very
>rotten in Irving.
>I think this is simply a misunderstood rumor. The dust hasn't
>settled on the '93 Jambo yet, it is too soon to say what will or will
>not happen in 1997.
Jeez, I HOPE it is an ugly rumor. The very thought of a few reckless,
criminal wolves undermining one of the fun things which allows people to
exchange acquaintances and come back with mementos of their meeting is
appalling to me. It bothers me even more that Irving TX would throw out the
baby with the bath water by imposing the rumored bans.
I still believe that the traders should get together and pose a united front
with ther local Councils and try to get Irving's attention (in a POSITIVE
way) to come up with self-policing policy recommendations, including booths
for helping young traders find values of old items and the prevention of
BTW, I still see no objection to Don I helping his son make an equitable
trade. There is nothing unethical that I can see about an older trader
helping a new trader. Now, if the adult trader was trying to burn the kid in
a trade between themselves, that should be another matter.
If it is a rumor, then the worst I have done by sharing it is continue the
discussion to try to resolve a potential situation before some wag decided to
make it official policy. I shudder at the alternatives.
I have enjoyed trading with everyone I have done so with, so far. I got
mildly burnt once or twice, but fortunately it was not of too much value. I
chalked it up to the learning curve. I will contiue to trade, as long as
there are people who wish to do so with me. Let's face it, guys and gals, it
is fun (as well as habit-forming) and good fellowship!
As far as visitors are concerned, I want to see an open camp continue. Not
everyone can (or wants to) go to Jambo, but they might be able to squeeze a
day out of another trip in the area. Visiting the guys from home would also
let them know that the home boys care about them when they are away, too. :)
From: Steve Souza <76703.633@COMPUSERVE.COM>
quoted From: Ernest Spradling freemason@AOL.COM
> I heard that National is planning to prohibit visitors to the next Jambo.
> Further, no trading will be allowed, by ANYONE, within the Jambo site.
> Neither will they allow a TOR outside the gate, because travel outside
> during the Jambo will be prevented.
Sounds like something the ASTA, etc. will want to jump on right away... They
could encourage their members to write to National about it.
> I also heard that National is getting ready to move into the patch
> regulation business on a full-time basis by requiring all OA lodge,
> Council and Camporee patches come through Irving TX. I guess they want to
> make sure they make their nut (i have seen some of the patches that
> National pushed on us in the 70's, and they were terrible).
I'd like to hear something official on this too. We've only done District or
Council patches with Nationla once, and their quality and response time was
very poor (though the cost was pretty good if you discount the poor
If they plan to 'require' we use them, I know a lot of folks who will fuss.
[ In summary, I personally feel that Don was exactly right in watching
after his son's own interest...if my son was at a jamboree and he had all
of my old patches with him, I would be standing right beside him, patch
police or no, and overseeing the trades.
At the same time, I also understand the fact that the BSA, like any other
organization, wants a piece of anything that happens during the jamboree.
That's common sense (cents). If I was running a business and one of my
employees was selling something to my customers, during company time,
certainly I would ask for a small percentage or at least, some
consideration from that person. And I think that's what the BSA is asking
for in this case...
Don, I don't know why no one has written you back a formalized letter, but
it took me six phone calls and three favors just to get someone to talk to
me about the patch trading situation. Naturally the only answers I got,
particularly from these two fellows, were "the BSA strongly encourages
patch trading as part of the program" and "we do have policies in regards
to patch trading". But they should have written you.
Finally, patch trading is not going to go away folks. The accounts that I
read of the first national Scout jamboree had Scouts trading buttons, and
pins, and patches. During every jamboree, be it world or national, Scouts
and Scouters trade things or a personal nature. That's part of Scouting.
Just like building a fire or setting up a tent, or singing silly songs
about announcements...those are all a part of the program. I don't think
National wants to cut out that element of the program, I think all they're
looking to do is to control the amount of it during jamborees where they've
expended great amounts of money to make the event successful and
worthwhile. And they also want to insure that boys go back home with fond
memories and warm feelings.
And not to be taken or cheated on...
Thank you very much and sorry that this is coming so late after we've
discussed this, but I wanted to make sure that I had enough information
before I decided to post my responses.
( Settummanque, the blackeagle... ) )
( (MAJ) Mike L. Walton (among other "endearing" names) ( )
( AIS/MR Recreation/Leisure Specialist, Lifeskills Inc. ___)_ )
( Phone 502-782-7992 (home) 502-842-2274 (office) |-=-|] )
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