Re: Uniform Trivia Answers (answers/summary)
Settummanque, the blackeagle (WALTOML@WKUVX1.BITNET)
Sun, 19 Sep 1993 10:36:00 CDT
There were many replies this week to this set of questions, but not as many
as for the questions on the Eagle requirements. Nevertheless, thank to all
that replied and answered at least one of the three for us all. However,
Mike Brown had the first correct answers to all *three* questions. In this
summary, is his reply and my comments based on the resources I have here
and elsewhere. Thanks again everyone for "using your resources"!!
From: Michael Rogero Brown <michaelb@SUNRISE.CSE.FAU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Uniform Trivia Question.....
> Okay...here's another trivial trivia question based upon our
> discussion of training awards this past couple of weeks.
> There are THREE square knot emblems which has been doing double duty
> (in other words, they represent older awards as well as present-day
> ones). One of them is the Silver Beaver square knot, used also by
> holders of the old Silver Fawn Award (and a sidebar: can anyone tell
> us who recieved the Silver Fawn Award and when it was discontinued??).
The Silver Fawn Award was ONLY given to Lady Scouters (they were bared from
getting the Silver Beaver). It was discountinued around 1973, when they
were permittied to get the Silver Beaver.
To be exact, the last Silver Fawns were awarded in December of 1973
and the last Council to award one was the Direct Service Council on
December 22nd, 1973. Part of the "new Scouting program" promoted
equality in all adult roles (well...as much equality as the BSA would
allow back then). The BSA phased out the position called "Den Mother"
and allowed males and females to serve in ANY Cub Scouting position
(well.. almost...males still had to serve as WEBELOS Den Leaders and
Assistants for another seven years or so). The Silver Fawn was quickly
shuttled out under the new program and Scouters that have earned the
Silver Fawn (90 percent of which were female, but there *were* some
males that earned it) could purchase and wear the Silver Beaver Award
items presently available to ALL Scouters and others that have given
"distinguished service to youth" over a period of time in the area
serviced by the local Council.
The Silver Fawn, for the curious, was a Silver Fawn, suspended from a
narrow white and green ribbon and a certificate. It was awarded for
"distinguished service to Cub Scouting and to youth" over a period of
time by the local Council. Because the two council-level Silver awards
(the Beaver and the Fawn) were similiar, the same square knot (light blue
and white ropes tied together on differing colored backgrounds then;
on tan background presently) were used for both awards.
(A GREAT IDEA: How about finding those holders of the Silver Fawn in
your Council and invite them as special guests of your District during
the fall recognition banquets?? It's been twenty years...sounds great,
> There are two other ones, one used as a training award and is the ONLY
> square knot that may be worn TWICE by Scouters "legally" (because it
> represents two awards, one old one and a new one recently discussed in
> this forum). Yes, National knows about the boo-boo but it was too
> late in which to make a change...and besides, the folks at National
> told us all (I reported it here on the list about two years back),
> "The other award" will have a new knot anyways, so after a while, it
> will correct itself!
I believe it is Blue & Gold Knot on Blue. Until 1988 (when they created the
new Cub Leader training awards) this knot was for the Den Leader Couch Training
Award. In 1988 this award was given a Blue on Blue Knot & the B/G on Blue
became the knot for the Cub Scouter Award.
Let me clarify this for Mike. The old award was first introduced in
1974, and was called the Den Leader Coach (not "couch", as Mary Lee
and Don had fun teasing Mike about!! hheeheh) Training Award. It and
the new Den Leader Training Award were both introduced along with the
mylar-threaded fully embroreded patches for those leaders whom were
trained. The award stayed and was extremely popular with Cubbing
In 1988, the Cub Scout Program Division
capitolized their success with getting Den Leaders and their Coaches
trained and introduced a set of NEW training awards to replace the
tired and dull Cub Leaders' Training Award and Cubmaster Key Award.
Now, ALL Cub Scouters have a track (including Tiger Cub Organizers)
toward earning a training award of some kind. The light blue square
knot on the dark blue background became the knot representation for
new Den Leader Coach Training Award. Then the CS program division
went one step further.
They created an award to present to those NOT in a unit role or those NOT
registered as a "primary leader", mainly for the Roundtable Staffs,
the Pack Committee and others that work with the Pack but NOT as a
Cubmaster or Assistant, Den Leader or Assistant, or WEBELOS Den Leader
and Assistant. The award is called the CUB SCOUTER AWARD. Then they
made the award REALLY distinctive: gold and light blue ropes tied
in a square knot on a blue background. Appropriate, right?? They
produced the awards, sent out the information, and......
ooops!!!! Someone on the National staff saw the "new award" and said
"Don't you ALREADY have a knot in those colors?? " (see how coordination
with others is SO important here???), but it was too late!
In the Jan-Feb 1989 _Scouting_, the program division admitted their
blunder and offered a simple remedy: "wear BOTH Awards. Then when
people ask you about the two awards, you can tell them about both."
Later on, during *our* conversation about the wearing of the square
knots, I brought this fact up and several responded that "but you
can't wear two of the same award". But yes, you can...as long as there
are old-timers like me around that have earned it, if I go back and
earn the Den Leader Coach Training Award *again* (which I won't but
for argument's sake only), I *could* wear both new knot and old knot
side-by-side. Or, which makes more sense to me, I can earn the Cub
Scouters' Award and (seriously) be able to wear TWO of the same knot
patches side-by-side!! Eventually, as the Insignia folks at National told
us then (and I reported it for the list), "the people that have the
old one will leave eventually, and there won't be any confusion about
> The other one has been used since 1958, to represent "Scouts" and
> Scouters that have earned *three earlier versions* of this special
> award... there was a square knot made for this award, but it was used
> ONLY for eight months, until this one was created as a "coverall" knot.
> It was the BSA's first "fully embrodered knot patch" and there are about
> 4000 holders of the present award, which isn't a "award" in the "badge" or
> "medal" sense.
> What are they??
Yes, Gene, the BSA has THREE fully embrordered knot patches: the
Professional Training Award is fully embrordered in white, with
a black square knot in the center; and the Youth Religious Emblem
(which used to be on a purple cloth background) is fully embrordered
on purple with a silver square knot in the center. And.....
You're probably taking about the Explorer Achievement Award Knot.
(Silver knot on Red/White/Blue). This knot was originally the Silver Award
knot- the Silver Award being the Second Explorer Award (equivalent to Eagle).
The Knot can also be worn by those who earned the Ranger Award (1944-49) in
Explorer Scouts or the Ace Award (1942-54) in Air Scouts/Air Explorers or
again the Silver Award (Explorer Scouts 1950-58; Air Explorers 1955-64).
These awards used to have their own knots:
Ace Award was Red/Blue on Khaki or Light Blue
Ranger Award was Bronze/Green on Khaki, Forest Green, or Blue
Silver originally has a different knot: Yellow/Red on Khaki, Green, and Blue.
In 1969, the BSA consoldated all of the older Exploring Awards
when the new contemporary Exploring program was created. The Silver
Award was discontinued in 1966, but local Councils were permitted to
award the medals to Explorers as late as 1969. Between 1970 and
1978, there was NO Exploring Award equal to Eagle for Scouts to earn.
I'll list the Exploring Achievement Award requirements later.
It's pretty interesting....the yellow and red knots were ONLY used
eight months as the Ranger program merged with the Silver Award program.
Therefore, if you find a old (version 1 Silver Award) square knot,
(and I have one), HOLD ONTO IT FOR DEAR LIFE! The same goes for the
Ace and Ranger, although you can still find holders of both awards
As a note, the colors of the Silver Award were NOT originally "red,
white and blue" with the silver knot in the center. The knot and
the center color was supposed to be silver...red and blue, as most
Exploring leaders will tell you, are the traditional colors of
And no, the Sea Exploring Quartermaster Award STILL EXISTS as a
program option for teens in nautical-related Exploring units. The
Quartermaster Award is a blue knot on a white background; a white
knot on a dark blue background; or (if you can still find them),
blue square knots on tan or khaki.
Did I get them right?
(this from a Scouter who is only 29. :) This is what comes when you are
a Memorablilist (sp) )
Yes you did, Mike, and thanks again to everyone that participated.
I don't know if I can keep up the "trivial trival" up long, but as
we all go FORWARD with our discussions here, it will prompt up some
questions that you can use as part of a icebreaker at your next
Roundtable or unit leaders' meeting. The intent was to educate and
allow those that have information that I can't get to often (or at
all...yeah, imagine that!) to share it with all of us.
We've had trivial trival questions on Girl Scouting, on 4-H (remember
we've spent a week answering what *we* thought 4-H stood for...),
but mostly on some aspect of the BSA's program. I agreed with some
that wrote me and suggested that my questions should be saved for
a Boy Scout trivia forum. I've replied that the questions, even
for fun, were NOT intended to show how much *I* personally knew about
Scouting (and I don't know EVERYTHING, believe me!), but rather to
highlight some topic or area that we've been *seriously* finding
answers to and to add some perspective to the issue. There are many
on our list and elsewhere that have stated "Geez, I remember *that*..."
from our discussion on the Eagle requirements. This week, I got a
note from a man in Minnesota that got a copy of the question and
wondered if he could still wear the old Ranger knot if he could find
So, it *must* have a purpose, right??
Well...it's downstairs to make "Mike Walton Oatmeal" for my honies, singing
the "Mike Walton Oatmeal Song" as loudly as I can (that's part of the
preparation!!)...so I'll leave for now...
Thanks again for the input and your responses!!
Mike L. Walton
(one of the first Exploring Acheivement Award holders)
( Settummanque, the blackeagle... ) )
( (MAJ) Mike L. Walton (among other "endearing" names) ( )
( AIS/MR Recreation/Leisure Specialist, Lifeskills Inc. ___)_ )
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