Re: Canadian scouts OFFICIALY co-ed!!!
(no name) ((no email))
Sat, 12 Dec 1992 13:01:14 CST
>> The Boys SCouts of Canada, an exclusivly MALE organization since
>> it's founding 85 years agao, had gone co-ed.....
>> [information deleted]
>> Rietvel said Canada was influenced by Scouts organizations in Europe and
>> Austrailia, which also allow girls to join. BOY SCOUTS in the USA remain
>> and exclusively male preserve.
>> So how long for BSA? Anyone want to start a pool?
>>Scouter Don (Izard)
> As an Eagle Scout and adult scouter I would first like to say that
>I support BSA's policy of only admitting male youth into the Cub and Boy
> In the case of the United States, I believe that because there
>currently exists a program for female youth in the Girl Scouts of America,
>that the BSA should not consider modifying there existing policy. I also
>believe proposals to modify BSA's existing policy to go co-ed should not be
>submitted by third parties because the Girl Scouts of America exists to
>meet these needs.
I also support the BSA's policy of male-only youth membership, but
this too is an issue that needs VERY CAREFUL study. As far as a
merger with the Girl Scouts of the USA (GSUSA), as Kathie wrote
several times, the BSA *has* tried to create a program both within the
BSA framework and within the independent corporation "Learning for
Today" outside of the mainline BSA, to admit girls.
The Girl Scouts are NOT interested.
The Girl Scouts of the USA does not meet the needs of ALL girls, and
that is the problem. In our earlier days, men went hiking cand
camping and did cooking outdoors and learned pioneering skills. Girls
did cooking inside (later some outdoors), learned sewing, child care,
did a lot of reading, did music, dance and homemaking (those are some
of the actual names of badges found in the Junior and Senior Girl
Scout Handbooks). Even later on, when the GSUSA made many changes to
its programs, those elements of "separate roles" were still much
In our prior discussion on this subject, we had concluded that its the
GSUSA that need to do some changing, and NOT the BSA. I still agree
with that, only I hasten to add that the BSA need to do some major
changes as well. It will come with time, and several heated court
cases, and eventually, some judge will look at the list of countries
world-wide that have Scouting programs and will ask the critical
questions: "What is the negative impact upon youth in those countries
as a result of their participation in a coed Scouting program?" (don't
look like any negative, it does appear that there's a lot of positive
impact); and "Why has the BSA felt that it is different from any other
Scout program in the free world to keep female youth from enjoying the
programs?" (because it has money tied up in the corporate name and
because there's a lot of people that have died or willed monies with
the sole stipualtion that if the BSA changes it's mission, that the
monies stop. In some local Councils, this means the end of the
> Keep in mind the the explorer program exists for various carrer
>oriented groups and does admit female youth.
Kevin, the Exploring program has succeeded in spite of the GSUSA,
which did NOT like the BSA's treading upon their older girls starting
back in 1971. They fought it, with some local GSUSA Councils telling
their youth (I know, the Kentuckiana Council, serving female youth in
west central and western Kentucky (and the Council where I was
registered with) had went as far as to tell female youth that "they
had to make a choice between the Explorers and the Girl Scouts and
they could not members of both". (that's crap, but that's what they did
to attempt to scare off older girls). Girls went to Exploring (no big
suprise there, they were there for the boys and the chance to go
camping and being in the outdoors, and NOT THERE for the "career" part
of the program).
> In Canada's case I do'nt believe the transformation should have
>happended. Mainly because the Canadian Equivalent to Girl Scouts are the
>Girl Guides, and always
>have been. Scouts Canada has allowed male/female Venturer Companies, and
>Rover Crews for some time.
What does that have to do with anything?? So, Canada has Girl
Scouting...so does 119 other countries at one time or another had girl
Scouting-type programs. The point is, that Canada, like many other
countries, had the foresight to realize that single-sex programs are
no longer in the interest of their citizens, does not promote the
approviate role models for its future leaders, and does not mean the
end of outdoor and "rugged events" that they have been doing. It does
mean that if girls join, that they have to be willing to endure the
same experiences that the boys do, or they can go home. Simple.
This is just like the reaction we got when we admitted female adults
to serve as leaders in all of our remaining programs. The BSA felt
that those people would turn the BSA into a "pansy program" where we
had to erect porta-potties everywhere and had to succumb to females
not doing many of the BSA roles because of "female problems". It
didn't happen, and that's why the BSA hasn't really tried to fight
this "merger thing" at all; on the other hand, they have been the ones
(yeah, I know...it took SEVERAL court appearance and lots of
out-of-court settlements!) to support the idea now, not later, was
time for us to break down and have female Scoutmasters and Assistant
> I really can't think of a better reason to keep the BSA and GSA
>seperate. I just don't think any harm is being done or the female race is
>being put down. If you want to get right down to it, both these groups and
>many others are just plain sexually discriminating.
There is harm done on females EVERY DAY, Kevin. I challenge you to
go to 10 companies in the coming week, get their application and talk
with their personnel (or hiring) directors. Ask them if they feel that
the Eagle Scout badge makes an impression upon them. Then ask them if
the feel the First Class badge makes an impression upon them.
After they ask you what the First Class badge is for (that's the
highest award that Girl Scouting awards!), then look on the employment
application and see how many times the words "Eagle Scout, etc." shows
up and the number of times "scouting" shows.
It's not just in the hiring part that we have given females unfair
equality; how about in the number of sheer experiences outdoors??
Most girls only get to go to ONE "wide adventure" EVER. Boys on the
average, get TWO chances to go to a Jamboree and up to six
opportunities to go to Philmont or some other high adventure facility.
You think that's fair?? Why is that so?? The Girl Scouts of the USA
has MUCH MORE MONEY to spend on its program than the BSA. They have
almost HALF the number of professionals employed. They also have
several camping facilities in the same Council area.
But they don't go camping or do outdoor activities enough, as we have
discussed here earlier.
In my opinion the BSA should never voluntarily change there policy.
> It would have to be a Supreme Court ruling. And if this happens then it
>should be accross the board. Examples: All girls schools/colleges must
>admitt boys, all boys schools/colleges must admitt girls, sororities
>should admit males, fraternities should admit females, womens clubs should
>admit males, mens clubs should admit females, etc.
Nope. You missed the point. Those that support the BSA admitting
girls don't really want to see this MANDITORY, but rather as many
other countries have already done. Danny, for example, wrote about
how there are single-sex programs, dual-sexed programs, and
combinations of both within the same chartered partner (dual-sex Cub
Scouts, single sex Scouts and dual-sexed Ventures). David Miller said
the same thing with regards to programs in western Europe and England.
Both stated that there were NO problems with the implementation, but
only problems related to leadership (not having enough female leaders
for the girls, or not having the required number of leaders for a
outing. These can be addressed by the chartered partners).
Just as a point of order....there are fraternities and sororities that
do admit the other sex. There are "men's clubs" that admit females
and likewise. Finally, this same issue sounds a LOT like issues
surrounding admitting people of color into the school, fraternity,
etc. (and I thought that we've been through that once!)
I know that this posting is done after we had "finished" discussing
it, but I was emptying out my mailbox when I ran across this note with
a personal note to "please answer this, Mikie...it sounds like the
same fight we had about trying to get women to serve as Scoutmasters!"
( Settummanque, the blackeagle... ) )
((MAJ) Mike L. Walton (among other "endearing" names) ( )
( (insert good paying job here with lots of benefits!) ___)_ )
( Phone 502-782-7992 (home) 502-782-7467 (office) |-=-|] )
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